[08:03am] MangoFusion joined the chat room.
[08:12am] kthomas_vh joined the chat room.
[09:11am] This-Alex: It's almost time!
[09:12am] eviking5 joined the chat room.
[09:15am] rcross: hey guys
[09:16am] bredgar joined the chat room.
[09:16am] rcross: hey brett
[09:20am] This-Alex: hey ryan
[09:20am] This-Alex: hey brett
[09:20am] This-Alex: and eviking5
[09:20am] This-Alex: :)
[09:22am] bredgar: hello
[09:27am] bredgar: anyone else around?
[09:27am] bredgar: it's awfully quiet for a meeting to be starting in three minutes...
[09:28am] rcross: yea, i'm reading through the patch que
[09:29am] This-Alex: I'm here
[09:29am] This-Alex: I hope everyone got the message :-/
[09:31am] rcross: perhaps a bit late, but i'm sure they did
[09:31am] rcross: if not, i'll just consider it part of the learning process
[09:32am] rcross: i'm going to grab my tea, and then we'll get started
[09:33am] rcross: 2 things i want to talk about today - goal for release date, and upgrade issues. And potentially other website issues if we get time
[09:33am] bredgar: sounds good
[09:33am] rcross: anyone got anything to add to that?
[09:34am] This-Alex: nope, not off the top of my head
[09:37am] This-Alex: Feel free to join in this time james :p
[09:37am] bredgar: jedi, are you awake?
[09:37am] jedi: at work
[09:37am] jedi: GMT+11 here
[09:38am] bredgar: well I'm GMT-6 and I'm at work, too :)
[09:38am] This-Alex: I'm GMT and tired :(
[09:38am] bredgar: so what do you have in mind for release goals ryan?
[09:39am] rcross: well, i have tried doing a code freeze date
[09:39am] rcross: but that hasn't really seemed to help
[09:41am] rcross: from memory probably 80-90% of the features/fixes that we want to include already have patches available, but they need work
[09:41am] rcross: so, conceivably we could push things out relatively quickly
[09:41am] bredgar: yep, I was just looking at all issues marked with "patch - *" in the issue queue
[09:42am] bredgar: I did have one thing I need to know from the group, though
[09:42am] rcross: but my guess is that realistically we're probably looking at a Jan release
[09:42am] rcross: yea?
[09:42am] bredgar: are we okay with making PHP 5.1 a requirement?
[09:43am] rcross: personally, i'm happy with 5.2+ so we can start making the dates more managable
[09:43am] bredgar: the reason is that we have a timezone patch to properly support dates, DST, what happens today and yesterday, etc., but it uses the PHP 5.1 DateTimeZone classes
[09:43am] bredgar: ah ha
[09:43am] bredgar: so we were on the same track, there
[09:43am] rcross: i think there are differences between 5.1 and 5.2 on date handling though
[09:44am] bredgar: what does 5.2 add to the equation?
[09:44am] bredgar: well, we're using 5.2 on our server, but I'm pretty sure the API we're using for timezones is 5.1+
[09:44am] rcross: i'd have to go look it up to be honest, but i think 5.1 uses the old php4 style dates
[09:44am] bredgar: the only reason I'd hesitate upping the reqs too much is for people using a hosting provider that is behind the times a bit
[09:45am] rcross: i'm also looking at efforts like gophp5.org and such, which recommend 5.2+
[09:46am] rcross: i think we currently just check for php 5.x
[09:46am] bredgar: I'm looking at the PHP manual on php.net right now, and it has date_timezone_{get|set} as PHP 5 >= 5.1.0
[09:47am] bredgar: timezone_name_from_abbr is >= 5.1.3 and timezone_transitions_get is >= 5.2.0, but we definitely don't need the latter
[09:48am] bredgar: but I'm agreeable to making the requirements >= 5.2
[09:48am] bredgar: I just think we might be able to get away with >= 5.1
[09:48am] bredgar: we can discuss that another time
[09:49am] bredgar: I'll clean up our timezone patch and attach it to Issue 646 in a day or two
[09:50am] rcross: ok, its best to start with 5.1 and go up from there when we decide to do that
[09:50am] bredgar: so our current goal is for a release in January
[09:51am] bredgar: do you think we should set a date for "feature freeze" where we won't accept any new issues
[09:51am] This-Alex: I've got some time on tuesday afternoons which I was using to work on my 'project', though I suppose I could use it to validate some patches
[09:52am] kthomas_vh left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[09:52am] rcross: well, that's what I tried to do before and i didn't really see any push for it
[09:52am] rcross: This-Alex: that would be great
[09:52am] rcross: reviewing and testing patches is probably our biggest hurdle right now
[09:52am] kthomas_vh joined the chat room.
[09:53am] bredgar: I'd say a bigger hurdle is bringing the patches in the Issue queue up to standards, and not just coding standards
[09:53am] rcross: bredgar: yes, i agree - though doing the testing to figure that out is part of that
[09:53am] bredgar: a lot of the patches are half-finished, and many that add a feature or functionality are non-configurable
[09:54am] bredgar: indeed, indeed
[09:55am] rcross: the other question i'm looking for a bit of discussion on is whether I should consider committing some of these "partial" patches, and then getting people to create new patches that make improvements/corrections on those areas
[09:55am] rcross: or whether i should be pushing back on the patches until they are "complete"
[09:55am] This-Alex: to be honest, I personally hate working with patches :-/
[09:55am] bredgar: this-alex: I do, too, but...
[09:56am] bredgar: I'd rather not see half-baked patches in SVN
[09:56am] This-Alex: I know, but if it's for small niggly things :-/
[09:56am] rcross: is there an alternative to patches that I'm not aware of?
[09:57am] bredgar: the bigger patches like time tracking, permissions & plugins, ..., need to get pushed to SVN because they change/add so many files it makes it hard to create new patches
[09:58am] rcross: yea, fair point
[09:59am] rcross: bredgar: btw, this is what i found http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration52.php
[09:59am] bredgar: the smaller ones are then much easier to create, install, and verify
[09:59am] bredgar: i think we currently have a DateTime class, don't we?
[10:00am] This-Alex: Yes
[10:00am] bredgar: <sarcasm> nice </sarcasm>
[10:00am] MangoFusion: whoah, a developers meeting
[10:00am] This-Alex: Though I think the name is slightly different
[10:00am] This-Alex: yeah :p
[10:01am] bredgar: this-alex: do you now how (in)compatible the classes are?
[10:01am] This-Alex: Yeah, it's called DateTimeValue in PP
[10:01am] bredgar: oh, well that's better
[10:01am] This-Alex: they should be compatible with the latest versions of php
[10:01am] This-Alex: Ilijia renamed the class back when it was 0.7
[10:02am] bredgar: i meant PP's DateTimeValue vs PHP's DateTime
[10:02am] rcross: naughty naughty - but remember, we're going to push off any major rewriting until the next version
[10:02am] This-Alex: oh
[10:02am] This-Alex: (~ bredgar)
[10:02am] This-Alex: *@
[10:03am] rcross: ok - this might help move things along as well - upgrade scripts
[10:04am] rcross: i currently hate the upgrade system, but i don't think we have enough time to rewrite it for this release.... the main issue is getting patches to include the necessary upgrade code and the best practices for doing that
[10:05am] This-Alex: What would you like the upgrade script to look like?
[10:06am] rcross: i would like something that numerical increments (instead of the crappy fruit themed names) and i would like something that is obviously easy for modules to hook into
[10:06am] rcross: i go back to drupal's upgrade system as a potential inspiration
[10:06am] This-Alex: Hook into?
[10:06am] This-Alex: Wouldn't it be better for them to be able to extend it?
[10:06am] rcross: well, plug into, extend, etc..
[10:07am] rcross: same thing
[10:07am] This-Alex: ok
[10:07am] This-Alex: Well I'm afraid I've got to go now :|
[10:07am] rcross: again? i thought we moved the meeting up 30 mins so you could be here for the whoel thing
[10:07am] This-Alex: I thought so too
[10:07am] rcross: ok, ttyl
[10:08am] MangoFusion is now known as Other-Alex.
[10:08am] This-Alex: Is it just going to be 20 more mins?
[10:08am] Other-Alex: i will substitute
[10:08am] This-Alex: lmao
[10:08am] This-Alex: thanks james :p
[10:08am] Other-Alex: haha
[10:08am] rcross: yea, 20 more mins
[10:08am] This-Alex: gah
[10:08am] This-Alex: can't do it :-/
[10:08am] This-Alex: Well I'll read the logs and email the list about anything I have issues with :-/
[10:08am] Other-Alex: yes i am going to re-write the upgrade system. twice. tonight
[10:08am] This-Alex: see you later ryan, james, jedi and brett
[10:08am] rcross: bredgar: what do you think we should do about the upgrade system
[10:08am] Other-Alex is now known as MangoFusion.
[10:08am] MangoFusion: maybe not :)
[10:10am] rcross: we could commit a "holding script" that patches could base against
[10:11am] bredgar: I think a "holding script" is a very good idea
[10:11am] rcross: ok
[10:12am] rcross: that will help get some of the existing patches more complete
[10:12am] bredgar: we should create a couple lines that basically say "patch right below this line" and then we should be able to roll multiple patches in with a small fuzz factor
[10:13am] bredgar: as long as everyone cooperates
[10:13am] rcross: that will also be an easier place to resolve any conflicts hopefully
[10:13am] bredgar: i agree
[10:14am] bredgar: one thing that I think we should do:
[10:14am] bredgar: if we are going to include the permissions system, any new permissions in 0.8.5 should use that system.
[10:14am] bredgar: so we'd need to update a few patches (time tracking springs to mind immediately)
[10:16am] rcross: correct me if i'm wrong - but did we decide to push that off till 0.9? and just keep the basic plugin functionality in place for 0.8.5?
[10:16am] bredgar: oh, did we?
[10:17am] bredgar: I thought we were doing both, but pushing off the more in-depth permissions system (group ACLs, object ACLs) until 0.9
[10:17am] rcross: i thought we did, but we can review the logs... how much more code + review needs to go into that patch?
[10:17am] rcross: yes, that is correct
[10:18am] rcross: i thought that's what you meant by the new permissions system
[10:18am] bredgar: andy reviewed it and provided a few improvements in the case of "new PP installations"
[10:18am] rcross: ok
[10:18am] bredgar: I reviewed his and it looked good to me
[10:18am] bredgar: I'm using it. :)
[10:18am] bredgar: i like living on the edge, apparently
[10:18am] rcross: hehe.. apparently
[10:19am] rcross: would you be able to run some of your security stuff against it?
[10:19am] bredgar: yes, I can
[10:19am] bredgar: that needs a bit of a side discussion, though
[10:19am] bredgar: ;)
[10:19am] rcross: that will make me a little more confident in including it
[10:19am] rcross: ok, we'll lets make that part of the agenda for next time then
[10:19am] Mastert: Hey guys, I'm new to this community. I'm a PHP developer. I really like this project. It is a wonderful thing you guys are putting together. Do you guys have a timeline for the 0.8.5 release?
[10:20am] rcross: are we good with same time next week?
[10:20am] bredgar: yes, same time next week works well for me
[10:20am] rcross: Mastert: this is what we were just discussing (and still are a bit)
[10:20am] Mastert: ok, i'll review the conversation, i think i haev it all
[10:20am] rcross: i think its reasonable to have a release goal of Jan 09
[10:20am] bredgar: mastert: current thought is a new release (0.8.5) in January
[10:20am] Mastert: wonderful
[10:21am] Mastert: also
[10:21am] rcross: bredgar: should we also aim for a feature freeze say middle of dec? or should we give more/less time?
[10:21am] bredgar: rcross: I'm going to go through the patches tomorrow (hopefully) and prioritize them, and probably add comments to several of them regarding status
[10:21am] Mastert: I did a checkout via TortiseSVN and it seems the codebase is not very different from my 0.8.0.3 download (just from front-end browsing)
[10:21am] bredgar: I was thinking mid December, so let's go with that
[10:22am] rcross: ok, dec 15th then
[10:22am] Mastert: Is this correct or may I have done something wrong?
[10:23am] bredgar: I'd say Jan 30 as tentative release date.  we can always move it up if it looks like we're progressing quickly.
[10:23am] rcross: Mastert: most of the new code is still being worked on in the issue tracker, but make sure you're looking at the trunk
[10:23am] bredgar: mastert: I don't actually know how different 0.8.0.3 and SVN are
[10:25am] Mastert: ok, thank you. I have just sent a proposal to our Software Development Manager and our Business Analyst to get their opinion on the software. I think they'll really like what this can do for our company and I hope to help in development in the future if they decide to start using it or at least allow me to use it individually
[10:28am] rcross: ok, summary so far: feature freeze dec 15th, release goal Jan... commit a stub for upgrade scripts... and when appropriate commit some of the bigger patches without full "completeness"... requirements to 5.1 (though may push to 5.2)
[10:28am] This-Alex left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[10:29am] rcross: agenda item for next time: Security analysis - specifically for new permissions system
[10:29am] rcross: other issues... do we want to have any further discussions about the website?
[10:29am] rcross: or anything else?
[10:29am] bredgar: i don't have any
[10:30am] rcross: ok, well, lets stick to our schedule and close the meeting then
[10:30am] MangoFusion: nothing wrong with the site :)
[10:31am] MangoFusion: (of a serious nature)
[10:31am] bredgar: sounds good
[10:31am] bredgar: i've got to run, so until next week!
[10:31am] rcross: MangoFusion: well, it needs updating for some modules and security patches.. and there are several issues of usability/new features people have requested... plus i'm still keen on doing a redesign
[10:31am] rcross: bye bredgar
[10:31am] rcross: thanks
[10:32am] rcross: see you next week
[10:32am] bredgar left the chat room.
[10:32am] rcross: MangoFusion: but you're right that its nothing major wrong with it
[10:32am] MangoFusion: yes could do with a redesign of course
[10:33am] MangoFusion: maybe you could time that in with 0.8.5
[10:33am] MangoFusion: unless that is too ambitious
[10:33am] MangoFusion: just an idea
[10:35am] rcross: yea, maybe
[10:37am] MangoFusion: i'm figuring now there is nothing else left to discuss :)
[10:37am] rcross: yea, meeting over :)
[10:38am] rcross: trying to keep them to a reasonable time instead of letting them drag on
[10:38am] rcross: makes people want to come back next time :)
[10:38am] MangoFusion: short and sweet, that's what i say
[10:44am] MangoFusion: in any case, cya later
[10:44am] MangoFusion left the chat room. ("ttg")
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