[09:46am] rcross: here here [09:46am] rcross: looks like we have a few new faces today [09:46am] rcross: still waiting for the mob to arrive though [09:48am] bredgar: how's Australia this morning? [09:48am] rcross: pretty good [09:48am] rcross: a bit over cast, but otherwise nice [09:48am] bredgar: My country may or may not exist in 48 hours, depending on who's side your on. So you all may have to fight the good fight on your own. ;) [09:48am] rcross: hehe [09:49am] Timothee: bredgar: where are you from? (I didn't get what you meant ;) ) [09:49am] bredgar: rcross: but you're an ex-pat, right? [09:49am] bredgar: Oklahoma, USA [09:49am] Pet joined the chat room. [09:49am] Timothee: OK [09:50am] Pet: hello all [09:50am] • Timothee is pretending to laugh out loud as the lousy joke [09:50am] rcross: bredgar: yep [09:51am] rcross: hello Pet [09:51am] bredgar: greetings, Pet [09:53am] Pet: good to see a few people here, presumably for the upcoming PP chat which starts shortly I take it [09:53am] bredgar: correct [09:53am] Timothee: correct [09:53am] Timothee: even though I'm around here quite often I think :) [09:54am] Timothee: Ryan, is there a plan for the meeting? [09:54am] rcross: Timothee: nothing official, i had hoped to work up an agenda but time got away from me [09:54am] rcross: i have some rough ideas in my head though [09:55am] Timothee: what, you don't have daylight saving time where you live? :P [09:55am] rcross: hehe... we have the opposite right now [09:57am] bredgar: I created a quick list of features that I thought were important for hypothetical 0.8.5 and 0.9 releases [09:57am] bredgar: that's about all the prep I did other than reading through some open issues and feature requests this afternoon [09:57am] Pet: i was going to add to the posts about "Reporting" requests, but thought this meeting would be a good time to bring things up [09:58am] Timothee: it makes sense that it's the opposite... I never thought about it... [09:58am] rcross: have the people here all read my post awhile back about the roadmap? [09:58am] bredgar: what happened to andypost [09:58am] bredgar: he shows up as away now [09:58am] Pet: hrm.. roadmap posts I saw have been basically empty [09:58am] • Pet goes to look again [09:59am] MangoFusion joined the chat room. [10:00am] bredgar: welcome, Mango [10:00am] Timothee: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=e4be0af40806120904g31798797g7358dd3a0a60f57b%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=projectpier-development [10:00am] rcross: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=e4be0af40806120904g31798797g7358dd3a0a60f57b%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=projectpier-development [10:00am] Timothee: I suppose that's the one, Ryan? [10:00am] Timothee: :P [10:00am] rcross: hehe.. yea [10:00am] rcross: read quickly Pet [10:01am] rcross: ok, i'm going grab my breakfast and then we'll get started [10:01am] rcross: andypost_away: ping [10:02am] Pet: done [10:03am] Timothee: you read pretty fast :) [10:03am] Pet: aye [10:04am] Pet: can I bring up a couple of other agenda items that don't seem to be covered? [10:05am] Pet: shouldn't add too much time [10:06am] Timothee: probably [10:06am] bredgar: well, since we don't have a real agenda.... [10:06am] bredgar: :) [10:06am] rcross: hehe.. sure [10:08am] rcross: well, i guess we should get started [10:08am] lev joined the chat room. [10:08am] rcross: any latecomers will just have to join in [10:08am] bredgar: let's do it [10:09am] Timothee: ok [10:09am] This-Alex: Hello everyone :) [10:09am] Pet: hi [10:09am] This-Alex: Do you think we should make a huge speech about how this is the first in a long line of meetings? :p [10:09am] rcross: quick round robin of who everyone is? [10:09am] This-Alex: sure [10:10am] rcross: yea, i was going to say somethign about that alex :) [10:10am] rcross: I'm Ryan and i'm the project lead - welcome [10:10am] rcross: (btw, i'll have logs but if someone wanted to take some notes... ) [10:11am] This-Alex: I'm Alex and I pester Ryan about things, I also wrote the wiki addon [10:11am] bredgar: This is Brett, and my company uses PP for customer interaction, so I've hacked bits and pieces of it since February :) [10:11am] bredgar: I also pester Ryan on occasion [10:12am] Timothee: I'm Tim and I'm trying to fix stuff here and there but I don't pester Ryan [10:12am] Pet: Peter, ceo of a tech consultancy, new adopter of PP for my company, very keen to help out although I'm not a developer [10:12am] rcross: note that Brett has also helped with some of the security patches we've put out [10:13am] eviking5: Egil, translator of the Norwegian language pack. Newly disovered PP and eager to learn... [10:13am] bredgar: eviking5: very appropriate nick [10:13am] eviking5: :) [10:13am] lev: Lev, run a web dev consultancy and switch to PP from AC when it went commercial ... wrote a task notification patch [10:14am] rcross: anyone else? don't be shy [10:14am] This-Alex: where's jedi? [10:14am] Timothee: come on CIA-27, you can talk! [10:14am] rcross: haven't heard from jedi in awhile [10:15am] Timothee: what about Dossy? are you around? [10:15am] Pet: probably won't hear from IRSeekBot, I think I know him from #OvercomingShynessWithHumans [10:16am] This-Alex: hehe [10:16am] PP_support joined the chat room. [10:16am] rcross: ok, for everyone else's reference jedi has helped previously by maintaining the 0.8.0.x branch [10:16am] Timothee: and then had a galactic battle to attend [10:17am] rcross: yep :) [10:17am] PP_support left the chat room. (Client Quit) [10:17am] rcross: ok, First off, i suppose its important to acknowledge things have slowed down and haven't move much in a little while [10:17am] rcross: also, as Alex mentioned this will hopefully be the first of many meetings for the project [10:17am] pearlbear joined the chat room. [10:18am] jedi: i'm here but i'm at work [10:18am] jedi: and have also been really sick the last 5 days [10:18am] rcross: thanks jedi - contribute if you can [10:18am] jedi: still kinda sick =/ [10:18am] jedi: the galactic battle has been in my stomach [10:18am] rcross: jedi: thats what sickies are for mate :) [10:19am] rcross: jedi is also in Sydney with me [10:19am] Pet: good to see a few colonials here :) [10:20am] rcross: There are probably a few main areas that I would like to discuss today [10:20am] andypost_away is now known as andypost. [10:21am] rcross: in no particular order : 1) general road map 2) organizational/process issues 3) website [10:22am] rcross: are there any other bigger topics people would like to talk about? or make sure are brought up in those areas? [10:22am] Pet: for me, one item to add to #1 and another item for #2 [10:23am] rcross: ok - anyone else? [10:23am] bredgar: those topics should cover what I wanted to get out of this meeting [10:23am] This-Alex: i'm good with those [10:23am] rcross: there might also be some discussion related to #2, which are any technical infrastructure issues [10:23am] This-Alex: though I only have 7 minutes :p [10:24am] rcross: ok, well - lets jump into the deep end then with #2, since the rest can be worked out later if we're organized properly [10:25am] rcross: For those not aware, currently myself and jedi are the core committers [10:27am] andypost: hi, all - i'm Andy (russian translation maintainer and fix some things about multilingual, help with testing patches [10:27am] rcross: It may seem like that can be a bottleneck (and without jedi, it makes it harder on me) but I don't think we currently have enough contributed code to really expand that much [10:27am] rcross: hi andy, thanks for jumping in [10:28am] rcross: what I would really like to see is some more testing and reviewing of the patches that we have [10:28am] rcross: currently, I kind of feel most of that falls onto my shoulders which i haven't had time for lately [10:30am] rcross: perhaps we should be approaching this differently ... let me throw out a few things instead of just talking at everyone [10:30am] This-Alex: alright, i'll see you guys later :( please save me the chat logs ryan [10:30am] rcross: one idea might be to try operating in a bit of a scrum/agile type way [10:30am] This-Alex left the chat room. [10:31am] rcross: having this type of meeting every week or 2, and then getting assigned tasks to/from people [10:32am] andypost: my thoughts about #1 - we need a mid-release 0.8.5 with bugfixes and little staf of improvements [10:32am] rcross: what would you guys like to see change in the organizational things [10:33am] Pet: my item for this is to ask about the mailing lists.. [10:33am] rcross: ok, pet - what's the question [10:33am] bredgar: it's hard to review patches that are too targeted to a specific use case... [10:33am] Timothee: I think there is a lack of more formal organization indeed. I think it would be good to get together and have a list of things that we, as a whole, should be working on [10:33am] andypost: next, to decide a php & mysql versions [10:33am] andypost: to support [10:33am] Pet: there has been a trend to move away from mailing lists to forums, any chance of this happening? [10:34am] bredgar: I agree with Tim [10:34am] Timothee: like a list of current patches that needs review and testing for example [10:34am] bredgar: i agree even more heartily with Tim [10:34am] Timothee: :) [10:34am] rcross: Timothee: like the issue tracker list? :) [10:34am] rmccue joined the chat room. [10:34am] Timothee: yes, exactly. It goes with what you mentioned some time ago [10:35am] rcross: the one sorted by "code needs review" [10:35am] Timothee: like a list of feature requests on the forum that are preferred [10:35am] Timothee: oh no sorry, I misunderstood you [10:35am] Timothee: I know the bug tracker does that [10:36am] rcross: ok, time [10:36am] Timothee: but I think that if someone (it could be me...) were to send a list every week or so of patches that could use some love, people might be more likely to do it [10:36am] bredgar: i'm thinking more along the lines of "these features will be included in the next PP, so let's test them this week and get them committed" type of deal [10:36am] rcross: er, tim... can you explain what you are looking for that isn't currently handled by the issue tracker? [10:36am] bredgar: or s/week/month/ [10:36am] Timothee: yeah... [10:37am] Timothee: to me, by going through the issue tracker, it feels a little isolated. I'm not sure that it's useful or not, especially since there hasn't been many commits and releases [10:38am] bredgar: it's also hard to know when to mark a patch as "ready for commit" [10:38am] Timothee: so, it feels like if we get a list of things we want to work on, as bredgar suggested, it might work better [10:38am] andypost: bredgar: good idea - make a feature request poll on site (forum thred or webform) [10:38am] bredgar: like I did with Tim's clean URLs patch [10:38am] rcross: Pet: to answer your question, i tend to feel that both mediums are important and i don't see a trend to either one. There are interfaces to the mailing lists that feel like forums if that is what you are looking for [10:38am] zkchong joined the chat room. [10:39am] zkchong: hi [10:39am] andypost: clean urls feature should be configurable [10:39am] bredgar: there's also the issue of patches being submitted against the 0.8.0.x code and not the SVN trunk [10:39am] bredgar: andypost: it is, though not exactly in the way that I'd particularly like [10:39am] rcross: bredgar: yes, i agree with you there [10:40am] bredgar: but it's configurable in the same way SHOW_MESSAGE_BODY, etc. are: in the config.php file [10:40am] andypost: nice [10:40am] rcross: before we get too far, i would like to avoid discussions about particular patches/features in this meeting [10:40am] bredgar: :) [10:41am] rcross: that type of discussion is great to put in the relevant issue [10:42am] andypost: rcross: suppose discussion should be in general-current state [10:42am] rcross: so, it sounds like people want more formal assignment type of workflows [10:42am] Pet: my suggestion stems from the fact that it creates 2 separate repositories for information. For instance, this http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=e4be0af40806120904g31798797g7358dd3a0a60f57b%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=projectpier-development and then this http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=e4be0af40806120904g31798797g7358dd3a0a60f57b%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=projectpier-development and then [10:42am] Pet: but i feel as if i'm interrupting u guys, sorry [10:42am] bredgar: i think a formal list of features would help speed testing of patches [10:43am] rcross: ok, that then ties into our road map discussion i guess [10:43am] Pet: oops pasted wrong link gah.. [10:43am] rcross: i would like to finish a few things here though [10:43am] bredgar: then again, there has to be someone to test the, [10:43am] bredgar: them [10:44am] rcross: yes - and i guess that is my worry [10:44am] andypost: thats all a tasks and features but first of all there should be general - what is roadmap (time of release and proposal for ... [10:44am] bredgar: i can't test my own patches. that's not fair :) [10:44am] rcross: if having a general list of features (instead of specific patches/issues) will help direct our focus, I'm happy to try to maintain that [10:45am] bredgar: i mean, to be honest with you all, I never make coding mistakes. so you might as well just mark all my issues as "ready to commit" [10:45am] bredgar: :P [10:45am] andypost: :) [10:45am] rcross: well, that brings up a good point - some people submit something and then mark it for committing. this doesn't work [10:45am] bredgar: andypost: shhh, be quiet, my mistakes are just between you and me [10:46am] rcross: i'd like to see at least 2 (other) people review/test a patch before it is committed [10:46am] bredgar: indeed [10:46am] rcross: so it is important that when people submit things they mark it as such [10:47am] Pet is now known as Pet-afk. [10:47am] rcross: in my head, basically nothing ever gets committed on the first submission [10:47am] rcross: Pet-afk: I'll come back to your issue a bit later [10:47am] bredgar: i don't suppose there is some way to mark a patch in an issue as "reviewed once" and "reviewed twice", is there? [10:47am] Timothee: I was about to ask that [10:48am] Pet-afk: gotta run, will post some stuff on forums to expand, cyas later [10:48am] Pet-afk: :) [10:48am] bredgar: thanks, Pet. keep in touch! [10:48am] rcross: hmm.. no, not particularly... i could try adding another state to the issue tracker for that [10:49am] rcross: but if a patch is marked "ready for review", then should it matter whether it has been reviewed once or twice? [10:49am] bredgar: no, it just makes it more difficult to determine if one or two people have reviewed it or not :) [10:49am] rcross: that also seems to imply that if it is reviewed twice, it gets committed automatically, which isn't necessarily the case [10:50am] bredgar: no certainly not, i agree [10:50am] bredgar: but, for example, I submit an updated patch for plugins, and I mark the patch "ready for review" [10:52am] bredgar: andy reviews it and fixes some problems. now his patch needs to be reviewed [10:52am] bredgar: twice [10:52am] bredgar: it's just hard to tell which patch has/hasn't been reviewed, and by how many people [10:53am] rcross: well, 1) if someone reviews it and finds issues, it can be marked "code needs work"... 2) when things are fixed/changed, then it should move back to "needs review" [10:53am] rcross: we should always be looking at the latest submitted patch i think unless otherwise specified in the issue followups [10:55am] rcross: unless there are other suggestions about how to address this, I'm going ot suggest we follow this up with some email discussion. But summary point is that we want the issue tracker to be a bit more usable [10:56am] rcross: more general issue is that we also want a better way to focus people's efforts on specific features or issues [10:56am] bredgar: agreed [10:57am] rcross: which i propose can be achieved with more regular meetings like this, plus with someone like Tim posting to the mailing list [10:57am] rcross: any other points of contention with our workflow adn organization? [10:58am] rcross: zkchong: we're having a developers meeting, hence why I didn't respond to you sooner [11:00am] zkchong: rcross, is ok. I am watching the discussion. [11:00am] rcross: ok - sounds like we can move on to what we want to focus on - i.e. the road map [11:00am] Timothee: yep [11:01am] rcross: can everyone briefly review the email that I linked to earlier? and lets discuss things in relation to that [11:02am] rcross: i think it covers most of the points I would make here, plus also high-lights a few specific features which we can expand on or alter [11:03am] Timothee: FYI: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=e4be0af40806120904g31798797g7358dd3a0a60f57b%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=projectpier-development [11:04am] rcross: yep, that's the link - thanks tim [11:04am] bredgar: on the theme of security improvements, I think an ehanced permissions system (not necessarily mine) would help out in this area [11:05am] andypost is now known as andypost_away. [11:05am] rcross: bredgar: i agree. specifically also addressing the issue of non-admins being able to add projects [11:06am] bredgar: beyond that, I agree with everything in the 0.8.5 roadmap [11:06am] Timothee: that issue is often requested and makes a lot of sense [11:06am] bredgar: yes, there are a great many things that could be enabled without too much effort *if* there were a proper permissions system [11:06am] eviking5: is the 0.8.5 map too ambitious? [11:06am] bredgar: i don't think so [11:07am] Timothee: just to be clear: to me API != plugin system, right? [11:07am] bredgar: time tracking has existed since the AC days [11:07am] bredgar: tim: i don't think so [11:07am] rcross: based on the list of things there, most of them already have patches available (that need work/review) [11:07am] bredgar: yes, they do [11:07am] rcross: and calendar view is already committed, but could be further improved i'm sure [11:08am] rcross: Timothee: yes and no [11:08am] bredgar: I think a question in the roadmap, though, is whether or not to go ahead with a basic plugins/permissions system, ot put that off [11:09am] rcross: there is a plugin system (which has an API) and I also expect to have a web services type interface (which is also an API) [11:09am] rcross: bredgar: i agree [11:09am] Timothee: rcross: in the roadmap, you see both implemented for 0.9? [11:09am] bredgar: the problem with time tracking is that so many people want so many minor tweaks to it [11:09am] rcross: my initial thought is lets put it off and focus on a release so we can build momentum [11:10am] bredgar: I honestly have no idea about the state of time tracking, even though I had intended to port it to a plugin [11:10am] rcross: but those are very important parts to the sytem, so I guess it also depends on how quickly things can be developed [11:10am] rcross: Timothee: probably at least some basic form of them, I would hope so [11:10am] bredgar: i definitely think a web services API couldn't be wisely implemented until 0.9 [11:11am] rcross: bredgar: i agree [11:11am] rcross: bredgar: what kind of tweaks are you referring to? [11:11am] bredgar: and a full-featured plugin system would include much more than what currently exists in the patch andypost and I have recently worked on [11:12am] Timothee: I think so too. Nothing exists yet for that, whereas there are a few things for plugins [11:12am] Timothee: * that = web-services API [11:12am] bredgar: timers, integration with tasks, UI tweaks like separate fields for hours and minutes, etc., etc. [11:12am] Timothee: thanks for the clarification [11:13am] bredgar: in my opinion, tasks and time tracking are one and the same [11:14am] rcross: well, one option would be to include the basics of the plugin system and then continue to improve it [11:14am] rcross: bredgar: i agree, though i would not include a timer [11:14am] bredgar: well, that's the tweak that scares me the most :) [11:14am] rcross: you want the time?? [11:15am] MangoFusion left the chat room. ("ttg") [11:15am] rcross: ... *timer? [11:15am] bredgar: no, I don't [11:15am] bredgar: that seems to be something that should be a separate, perhaps non-Web application that simply makes API calls [11:16am] rcross: ok - well, lets leave it out - we can always add to things later or make it a further plugin [11:16am] Timothee: one question regarding organization and roadmap then: (which goes back to the lists we discussed) shall we wait to have a complete plugin system to add some features as plugins or should we start sooner than that? [11:16am] rcross: my feeling is a bit of both [11:17am] rcross: for example, i consider both (basic) time tracking and wiki pages as suitable functionality for core [11:17am] Timothee: time-tracking for example, is non-essential to me. But it could be argued to be part of the core or not... [11:17am] Timothee: yep [11:17am] bredgar: i'll be honest, I've held off doing any more development that would require the permissions system I implemented because I didn't know how soon we would include it in PP [11:17am] rcross: so, i'm keen to get them in the package either as plugins or directly [11:18am] bredgar: and I am keen on moving almost *everything* to a plugin [11:18am] bredgar: and then making plugins take effect per-project and per-user [11:18am] rcross: bredgar: that's a fair call - i really want to rewrite the permissions system, but it is a big impact item. perhaps we should push it off till 0.9 [11:18am] bredgar: example: my company doesn't use tasks or forms. :) [11:18am] rcross: bredgar: those are my thoughts exactly [11:19am] andypost_away is now known as andypost. [11:20am] rcross: in my head, probably the only thing that is un-plugin-able would be the actual projects, since this is primarily a project centric system [11:20am] bredgar: and there are so many patches floating around, I hesitate to continue developing patches when I know that there are going to be conflicts in the code [11:20am] bredgar: but I guess that's the classic problem in OSS projects, eh? [11:20am] rcross: hehe.. yea, a bit [11:21am] rcross: i think its important to unify any issues like that in the issue tracker, and then stick to that item as the "gold standard" type of thing [11:21am] rcross: also, we need to push harder to make sure patches are against the trunk [11:21am] bredgar: yep [11:21am] bredgar: I pretty much refuse to look at anything not against SVN [11:22am] bredgar: and a fairly recent SVN at that [11:22am] rcross: which is fine, but that is also part of reviewing [11:23am] rcross: so as you're going through those patches, we need to mark the issue "code needs work" with a comment about making the patch against svn (or a more recent version if needbe) [11:23am] bredgar: yes, projects are definitely core functionality [11:24am] rcross: ok - summary points it seems, generally the roadmap I posted in the email seems good [11:25am] rcross: however, we should try to get some basic bits of the plugin system into 0.8.5... how much will depend on development speed [11:25am] Dossy: pon? [11:25am] Dossy: pong? [11:26am] Dossy: At work, my boss decided he likes dotProject. I at least mentioned ProjectPier, but ... oh well. [11:26am] andypost: my opponion - 0.8.5 first version of plugin system and flexible plugin system - maybe example of timetracking as plugin [11:26am] rcross: and we will probably push off the permissions system rewrite until 0.9 unless there is a lot of work goign into it soon [11:27am] Timothee: I agree with the idea on pushing whatever is possible as plugin, some of them being part of the core distribution [11:27am] andypost: flexible permission system Required too [11:27am] rcross: andypost: yes, i like that idea or maybe the wiki pages as a plugin example [11:28am] bredgar: we can't have even basic plugins without a basic permissions system [11:28am] bredgar: rcross: are you referring to permission rewrite as separate from what I created? [11:28am] bredgar: if so, plugins have to go to 0.9 [11:28am] andypost: then 0.9 as rich plugin API + set of plugins - it separete core+plugin interface+ permissions [11:28am] bredgar: or both as plugins :) [11:28am] rcross: bredgar: perhaps that is a question for you - is it possible to partially implement extensible permissions without a complete rewrite of the permissions system? [11:29am] bredgar: it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is (err... 'extensible') [11:29am] andypost: 0.8.5 gives a vision of plugins and show pits with current realization of plugins and permissions [11:29am] andypost: then 0.9 release - some people can make set of plugins [11:30am] rcross: well - could we make the wiki plugin add permissions to the system? [11:30am] bredgar: as I wrote the permissions patch, I was conciously trying to make it so that it could be relatively easily extended to include group- and project-based permissions [11:30am] andypost: separations of core and plugins- Required [11:30am] bredgar: as well as explicit denies, allows, and inheritance [11:30am] andypost: yeah a spent some time with understanding [11:30am] bredgar: 'relatively easily extended' = quite a bit of work still to do such a thing [11:31am] andypost: it looks ehough for 0.8.5 [11:31am] andypost: little bit fixes [11:31am] bredgar: sure, we could... just as timetracker adds a 'can_manage_time' column on project_users table [11:31am] andypost: rcross: yes [11:32am] andypost: rcross: wiki works as plugin right now [11:32am] bredgar: the latest wiki _plugin_ patch that I did has more permissions than just 'can_manage' though [11:32am] rcross: bredgar: i definitely agree that "relatively easily" will be hard, and which is why it might make sense to (if possible) only partially implement it... just the very basics to allow the wiki plugin to have a yes/no access permission [11:32am] bredgar: well, the basic actually has more than yes/no [11:32am] andypost: bredgar: suppose beter to move timetraking to plugins, not everybody heeds it [11:33am] bredgar: and I think I can quite easily implement object-based permissions for the wiki plugin [11:33am] andypost: agreed [11:33am] bredgar: i agree timetracking, if included, should be a plugin (if plugins are included) [11:33am] andypost: it should [11:33am] rcross: bredgar: i guess my point is, can we put in some basic plugin capabilities without a complete rewrite of the permissions (and other core level) system [11:34am] bredgar: like I said earlier, I meant to turn that into a plugin, but I was overwhelmed by the myriad of tiny tweaks in the issue tracker [11:34am] bredgar: rcross: yes [11:34am] bredgar: i think what you are going for is what the patch implements now [11:35am] andypost: when we talk about rewrite of core (sometiome ago) there's no other way as api+core+plugins [11:35am] bredgar: even adding a few more useful permissions to the existing core would be easy to do as the patch stands now [11:35am] rcross: Ok - lets do that then. Lets get the basics of a plugin system included, and we'll focus on rewriting everything (based on other feedback) in 0.9 [11:35am] andypost: and implemend as plugins [11:36am] rcross: bredgar: just to be clear - the wiki is implemented as both "core" and a plugin - so which version of the patch allows for the extra permisions? [11:36am] andypost: rcross: i see no other way [11:36am] andypost: it make hands of of community untired [11:36am] bredgar: just a sec... [11:36am] ehayes left the chat room. [11:37am] bredgar: issue 847, comment #14 [11:37am] andypost: and more people can come to make plugs is we have clean api (well-docs incl) and clever plugins interface [11:37am] bredgar: http://projectpier.org/files/issues/wiki_plugin.tar_.gz.txt [11:38am] bredgar: if we go with a plugin system in 0.8.5, we'll create a separate project for the wiki plugin [11:38am] bredgar: and we're going to need the system to allow files with .ZIP and .TAR.GZ extensions [11:38am] bredgar: I guess that's an agenda item #3 discussion.... [11:39am] andypost: bredgar: we need build system which can pruduce this .zip .gz [11:39am] bredgar: andypost: apparently I never followed-up on your reply with fixes to the plugin patch. I installed it and it worked like a champ. [11:40am] bredgar: i mean, I installed your patch and it worked like a champ [11:40am] bredgar: not mine :) [11:40am] bredgar: like I said earlier, all my patches are correct from the beginning ;P [11:40am] bredgar: so I'm not admitting anything [11:41am] bredgar: andypost: what do you mean by build system? [11:41am] andypost: rcross: can you attach drupal releases with cvs integration? [11:42am] rcross: andypost: yes, drupal.org uses a build system with cvs integration, we are using SVN though [11:42am] andypost: bredgar: to make projects maintained by other people [11:42am] andypost: rcross: i know - no diffence, svn exisst too [11:43am] rcross: we do already have the capabilities to offer other "projects" - like i've done with translations. but doing an automatic build based on svn would be a fair bit of work at this point [11:43am] andypost: rcross: it's just a transport-storage layer [11:43am] bredgar: oh, i see what andy is saying now [11:43am] rcross: not quite, it also does all the tar compressions and stuff [11:44am] zkchong left the chat room. (Connection timed out) [11:44am] bredgar: i don't know anything about Drupal :) [11:44am] rcross: andypost: its doable, not non-trivial is all [11:45am] rcross: I can already delegate projects/modules to people though and they just have to be responsible for maintaining/uploading their own tar balls [11:45am] andypost: rcross: i can ask my progs about that - mark as task for me [11:45am] rcross: down the line we can move towards more automatic generation [11:45am] bredgar: so what about the improved theme support on the 0.8.5 roadmap [11:45am] rcross: ok, thanks andy. will do [11:45am] bredgar: is that the marine theme and dropdown patch? [11:45am] rcross: it was kind of a generic issue/topic [11:46am] bredgar: i'm all for the dropdown patch, although we use our own version of the acClassic theme [11:46am] andypost: supose theme-staff is very light now and should be revieweâ incompatible encoding [11:46am] Pet-afk is now known as Pet. [11:46am] rcross: i also need maintainers for the other core themes so that when we do make changes to the html, we can update them appropriately [11:46am] bredgar: what I'd really like to see is a "fluid" theme that fits whatever size of screen someone has [11:46am] Pet: back... you guys need to learn to type faster lol [11:47am] bredgar: but unfortunately I am terrible at CSS [11:47am] rcross: bredgar: i'll put that on the roadmap then - commission of a new core theme [11:48am] bredgar: HTML+CSS+ working between the various versions of IE, Firefox, and Safari just hurts my brain [11:48am] Timothee: btw, some of themes could be dumped in my opinion (at least as they are). [11:48am] andypost: Pet it's hard for me now - we got party state :) everything is shaking around me [11:49am] Pet: :) [11:49am] Timothee: bredgar: I hear you... IE is driving me crazy. [11:49am] bredgar: unfortunate, isn't it? [11:49am] rcross: Timothee: i'm not a big fan of most of them either, but i think its important for the end users to have several choices at least [11:49am] andypost: right [11:50am] andypost: theme layer talks stucked some time ago ... no motion in that directions [11:51am] Timothee: one point I have about themes is that I have seen many times that the HTML and CSS are not easy at all. It would be great if we could have somebody good about that to clean up the HTML/CSS to make it easy to expand [11:51am] Timothee: that or a proper templating system of course [11:52am] bredgar: timothee: indeed. I am almost of the opiniong that the current HTML precludes a "fluid" CSS theme [11:52am] Timothee: I couldn't tell :) [11:53am] Timothee: ok, I just had another look at the default themes. They're not that bad in fact... could use some refreshing but not horrible. [11:54am] Timothee: I think we got side-tracked, didn't we? [11:54am] bredgar: perhaps [11:55am] bredgar: I am going to have to bug out here in about 5 minutes [11:56am] rcross: yea, we've been going for almost 2 hrs, so i need to wrap this up soon too [11:56am] rcross: the general point in my roadmap about theming improvements covers someone cleaning up the html and any refreshing of the core themes. [11:57am] rcross: i think we can look at a full template engine in 0.9 or 1.0 if needbe [11:57am] rcross: some of the UI tweaks i had in mind included a little more ajax in areas and stuff like that if we can get to it [11:58am] rcross: are there any other major points to discuss in terms of the roadmap? things people want to bring up? [11:58am] bredgar: agreed [11:59am] rcross: in summary, i think we agree on the roadmap i laid out and will add the basics of a plugin system and the wiki as a plugin (with basic permissions) and we will push off some of the major rewriting (including a permissions system rewrite) until 0.9 [11:59am] Timothee: there was the discussion about jQuery vs. Prototype [11:59am] Timothee: somebody said they could work on going towards jQuery but it never happened [11:59am] rcross: yes, rmccue had offered to write a patch switching everything to jQuery, which i support [12:00pm] rcross: but i haven't seen anything yet [12:00pm] Timothee: I don't think we need to discuss that right now but I believe that it would be an interesting thing to have [12:00pm] rcross: ok [12:00pm] Timothee: just something to keep in mind [12:01pm] rcross: ok, the only thing we didn't really discuss was teh website, but i think a few issues were broght up and we can discuss it further next time [12:01pm] rcross: (i have been wanting a redesign and people have offered, but i'll deal with that more later) [12:01pm] Timothee: what about "next time" actually? how do you see that working? [12:02pm] rcross: i'm not sure whether this was a good time for everyone or not - what do you guys think? [12:02pm] rcross: i'm going to suggest having another meeting next week, to keep up the momentum [12:02pm] rcross: then we can probably switch to meetings every 2 weeks or so [12:03pm] bredgar: this time works for me, if we can keep it a bit shorter...maybe an hour [12:03pm] rcross: that way we can have some more formal directions [12:03pm] bredgar: sounds good to me [12:03pm] rcross: yea, i think next time we can keep it shorter, there was a lot to discuss this time [12:05pm] Timothee: another thing would be to have some kind of agenda in advance [12:05pm] Timothee: this time for me is not the best since it's during work hours, so it's good if I can know if I want/need to be here or not [12:05pm] Timothee: after work hours is not necessarily good either because my wife doesn't like when I'm on the computer, but that's another story :) [12:05pm] bredgar: yep, we can always discuss an agenda on the mailing list and then ryan can finalize it [12:06pm] Timothee: another thing would be a quick summary of the discussion to the ML when anything important happened [12:06pm] rcross: yea, once we get moving these meetings can be much shorter and stuff [12:06pm] Timothee: I know that's not necessarily easy though [12:06pm] bredgar: alright, i have to go [12:06pm] Timothee: ok bye bredgar [12:06pm] rcross: i've made a few summary points, and will post them out with the logs [12:06pm] bredgar: fill me in on anything else via the mailing list [12:06pm] bredgar: sounds good [12:06pm] bredgar: take care [12:06pm] rcross: i think we're basically done, so ttyl brett [12:06pm] bredgar left the chat room. [12:07pm] rcross: Timothee: any other comments? [12:08pm] andypost: just idea... to build theme layer as plugin [12:08pm] andypost: maybe for current stage [12:08pm] rcross: its going to be difficult to schedule the meetings - there is just not any time that is good for everyone [12:08pm] Timothee: yeah I know [12:08pm] Timothee: but the US should come first though [12:08pm] Timothee: :-D [12:08pm] Timothee: just kidding [12:08pm] rcross: hehe [12:09pm] rcross: only if you vote for the right person [12:09pm] andypost: this way is easy to separate theme layer [12:09pm] Timothee: I'm not even American [12:09pm] andypost: i'm too [12:09pm] Timothee: so, no I don't have any other comments [12:09pm] rcross: andypost: i agree we need some theme abstraction [12:09pm] Timothee: my main point is that I don't think we haven't been communicating enough [12:09pm] andypost: see ya latter have to go to billiard with my wife [12:09pm] Timothee: *have [12:10pm] Timothee: :) have fun! [12:10pm] andypost: back some time latter [12:10pm] Timothee: ttyl [12:10pm] rcross: bye andy [12:10pm] rcross: oh, andypost [12:10pm] rcross: what city/timezone are you in? [12:10pm] andypost: Timothee: realy have to... [12:10pm] andypost: no chance at all [12:11pm] rcross: Timothee: i agree, and no one really to blame but me [12:12pm] Timothee: if it was just you, it wouldn't be communication, but monologue [12:12pm] Timothee: :) [12:13pm] rcross: hehe.. true [12:13pm] Timothee: but we should actively promote communicating with each other [12:13pm] Timothee: the mailing-list is quieter than it should be [12:13pm] rcross: i agree, and it goes in spurts [12:13pm] Timothee: I don't know how you see the use of the ML, but even though it means more emails, I think we should use it even for details [12:14pm] rcross: yea, that is fine by me [12:14pm] Timothee: so far, it has been mostly for higher level questions or big points [12:14pm] Timothee: you know what I mean? [12:14pm] rcross: proper communication like this meeting though is not good over email [12:14pm] rcross: well - most discussion abotu particular patches or features needs to stay with the issue [12:14pm] rcross: but otherwise i agree [12:16pm] rcross: unless there is a patch like the plugin system or permissions rewrite that needs more broader discussion before being implemented, then that is good for the mailing list [12:16pm] Timothee: yeah that's true but I think there's a middle ground to fine [12:16pm] Timothee: find [12:16pm] rcross: yea [12:16pm] Timothee: anyway... [12:16pm] rcross: do you think this meeting was good? [12:16pm] rcross: anythign else you were hoping to come out of it? [12:16pm] Timothee: it was a good meeting, I hope we will keep the momentum [12:17pm] Timothee: I'm trying to think about what I was expecting, but I'm tired :)... [12:17pm] rcross: sounds good - i think a few more meetings will help [12:17pm] rcross: hehe, yea i understand [12:17pm] rcross: get some sleep [12:17pm] rcross: i'll post up a summary and we'll follow up the rest next week [12:19pm] Timothee: sounds good [12:19pm] Timothee: oh yeah actually [12:21pm] Timothee: I think we should discuss testing one of these days [12:22pm] Timothee: as in: how can we make it easier for it to happen [12:24pm] rcross: automated testing? or just general patch review/testing? [12:25pm] Timothee: general patch review I would say [12:26pm] Timothee: it could just be a document explaining the few steps to follow to have a good testing environment [12:27pm] rcross: ok [12:27pm] eviking5 left the chat room. ("Ex-Chat") [12:27pm] rcross: i'll try to make some notes next time i do a big one [12:27pm] Timothee: I don't know what we should do, but I suppose something can be done :) [12:28pm] Timothee: AFAIC, I'd like to write myself a little AppleScript/Automator/something to just get running fast [12:28pm] Timothee: we could encourage people to hint at some things that should be tested for a specific patch, etc. [12:28pm] Timothee: well, it was just a thought for a later discussion [12:28pm] Timothee: I need to go [12:28pm] zkchong joined the chat room. [12:29pm] rcross: ok, sounds good [12:29pm] rcross: i'll ttyl [12:30pm] Timothee: yep [12:30pm] Timothee: bye everyone [12:30pm] Timothee left the chat room. [12:37pm] rmccue left the chat room. (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [12:46pm] andypost is now known as andypost_away. [12:51pm] v0rtex-fl left the chat room. ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") [1:11pm] Pet left the chat room. (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)